12 replies [Last post]
brianb's picture
brianb
Offline
Joined: Jan 20 2009
Posts:

More of a rule thing than an etiquette thing, but wanted to bring it up. At Swards Ranch I heard about and saw a few people who had the misfortune of have their disc come to rest on the cliff climb out onto it to play their lie. While fun, it made me cringe just watching as a fall would've been really bad. The people I know of at Swards did throw a provisional to possibly save time in case their original lie wasn't playable, but I wanted to let people know that there is a rule that can be applied to benefit player safety in cases like this.

803.06

A. A player may declare his or her lie to be an unplayable lie. The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable. The unplayable lie may be relocated to a new lie that is: (1) No closer to the hole, on the line of play and within five meters of the unplayable lie; or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player's score.

Note that it says the player is the only person who can decide if the lie is playable or not.

Hing Kyzer's picture
Hing Kyzer
Offline
Joined: May 10 2009
Posts:
So I'm glad you brought this

So I'm glad you brought this up. A key word phrase is " The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable. "

I was in the Creekside one year with a five some and one player through a really junky shot into perhaps the worst tournament rough I've seen. He declared his lie unplayable. Myself and 2 others found it playable, his friend in our fivesome remained undecided. We verbally hashed it out till we finally looked up the rules. The bottom line is it is the players choice. In this case if I was him I could have thrown 2 to 3 over hands/rollers/trickshots to get out and then finish out the hole. The lie really sucked as bad as it can suck, so hard, he called it "unplayable". By playing this rule he saved himself a stroke or two. While I felt safety was not an issue, and just having a really bad lie was, the lie would have required 2 to 4 shots to get out, and was not truly "unplayable" in my mind. But once again Brian does a good job of bringing this rule up:
" The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable. "

If they call in unplayable and you doubt it or disagree forget about it and worry about your own game, it is the rules.

turn it over

Christian's picture
Christian
Offline
Joined: Mar 9 2009
Posts:
A sort of similar situation

A sort of similar situation is when a shot goes out of bounds, and the rules on the hole are to play the shot where it was last in-bounds. Obviously, sometimes this can create some terrible lies that put you in a position like the unplayable-lie-caller in deeds' post above, where if you could just take a stroke and play from your previous lie you'd much prefer it. Like calling an "unplayable lie," when you throw OB you ALWAYS have the option to take a stroke and play from your previous lie, whether off the tee, mid-hole, whatever. So say on hole 7 blue if the road by the tee was OB, and you missed a 10-footer that rolled all the way down, you would definitely just want to just take a stroke and re-putt. Something to be aware of!

Smokey's picture
Smokey
Offline
Joined: Mar 10 2009
Posts:
definition

I disagree that those are unplayable...note definition.

Unplayable Lie: A lie from which a player decides that obstacles to stance or throwing motion make it impractical or unsafe to attempt a throw. The lie is relocated with a penalty.

This does not mean that if it is going to take mutliple shots that it is unplayable....unplayable means that if the lie makes it impossible to throw a disc, it is an unplayable lie. Unplayable only comes in if you cannot make a throw without hazard according to the definition. Not if it is hard to make a good score on the hole.

Hello Masters Division!

brianb's picture
brianb
Offline
Joined: Jan 20 2009
Posts:
It skirts the intent of the

It skirts the intent of the rule, but CD and Hing Kyzer are correct that you can call ANY lie unplayable, even if the intent is to save yourself a stroke or two.

Smokey's picture
Smokey
Offline
Joined: Mar 10 2009
Posts:
disagree

I still say that according to the definition...you can only call a lie unplayable if: 1. the lie requires you to put yourself in a hazardous situation. or 2. if from your lie your throwing motion is restricted to the point that it is impossible to make a throw.
If you refer only to the rule then I would say yes, but because of the wording of the defintion...it does not say that you can relocate to make it easier to make a good throw. You can only relocate if you cannot make a throw. If someone declares that their lie is unplayable they must understand what "unplayable" means based on the PDGA definition standards.

Hello Masters Division!

Christian's picture
Christian
Offline
Joined: Mar 9 2009
Posts:
Everyone's right. You are

Everyone's right. You are only supposed to call unplayable lie for the reasons Smokems has noted:

"Unplayable Lie (from PDGA rulebook definition section): A lie from which a
player decides that obstacles to stance or throwing motion make it impractical
or unsafe to attempt a throw. The lie is relocated with a penalty."

but at the same time, what is "unsafe" or "impractical" (note: not impossible, but merely impractical--big difference) is pretty darn subjective, and in recognition of that, the rules leave it completely up to the player ("the sole judge") to decide whether a lie is unplayable or not. So it looks like even if you believe that someone in your flight is using the rule improperly, it's up to them.

Question: is there any time where a player would be using this rule, solely to gain advantage, that might fall under 804.05(3), which says that you can be DQ'ed for "a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play"?

A last bit of food for thought: seems like using the rules to gain an advantage is a bad thing, but there are already plenty of rules that the player is expected to use to his or her advantage, like if the shot went OB in my previous post...so should the fact that a rule can make the course easier even be an issue?

Christian's picture
Christian
Offline
Joined: Mar 9 2009
Posts:
By the way I love talking

By the way I love talking etiquette and rules. The rules of this game can be pretty darn tough to figure out.

Other rule questions:

What exactly does the rule of verticality mean, and where is it in the rules that you can't use it to your advantage? The only place I can find it in the rulebook is when you are marking your lie within a meter of the out-of-bounds line. Anyone else have any luck?

Do you actually move the imaginary point that is your "lie" when you use a mini marker disc, or is your "lie" the same place, either the front of your disc or back of your mini? It seems like you have 30 cm behind either disc or mini to throw, but Avery once told me that if you leave your disc, you only have 3 or so inches behind it, because your "lie" that you can be 30 cm behind is the front of the disc.
A related question: say your disc comes to rest straddling the 10 meter line, where if you left your disc in place and putted from the back of it, it'd be beyond 10 meters, and if you marked it with a mini and putted from right behind the mini, it'd be within 10 meters. What's the rule? Also, say your disc is RIGHT inside the 10 meter circle, where if you used all 30 cm, your stance would be outside of 10m...can you jump putt?

PDGA rulebook:
http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PDGA2007rulebook.pdf

Hing Kyzer's picture
Hing Kyzer
Offline
Joined: May 10 2009
Posts:
Spirit of the Game

You would have to have been there to see the situation in full, and I don't think he felt he was taking advantage of the rules, he just felt he didnt' have any kind of shot that could possibly gain more than a few inches. And his lie sucked that bad, all time worst I've seen. Just insanely thick vegetation for 25 to 30 feet in all directions. I would have played the hole out myself and taken my possible 7 or higher. But then again his drive was about 50 or so degrees off the right line. Grip lock city. I really don't think he pulled it out to take advantage, he felt there was no shot that could move him anywhere. Once again, he could have gone about 30-45 feet backwards with a shot or four and thumbered over the whole mess in my opinion. His hand would possibly be bloody by the end of it, but besides that, there was no risk of physical harm. But a bloody hand is physical harm. And just gaining 6 to 7 inches with a shot is forward progress and a "play". But why be that big of a dick about the whole situation. His lie was that bad, we wanted to keep moving and not wait 20 minutes for him to finish the hole, and it was in the grey zone, like a lot of things in disc golf and life can be. Give the player the benefit of the doubt, make a joke or two, and move on. The world ain't perfect, and sometimes even with all our rules you get a grey zone one like this. I feel it is best to remember the spirit of the game and our shared interest in the disc and move on. Nothing is truly ever fair, but in the end we all end up our fair share of good and bad breaks. If a player calls it unplayable cause it is "impractable" it has some greyness around it, and that is ultimately that players decision.

When people try and pull a quick one they usually end up paying for it down the road. The other side of it is if he really felt it was legitemately unplayable it can be tough if the rest of the group disagrees. It creates thoughts and moods that destroy focus. If you make this call there should be no doubt in your mind it is legitamate, cause you might have to defend your decision even if it is legit. I guess I'm saying in his case he really fell apart after this hole. The mood changed. He wasn't doing that bad till this shot. And after that he also didn't play good the rest of the round, and the rest of us did. For me it was the turning point that got me within a stroke of the money by the end of the tourney after a horrible start. I was playing like crap and not focused on the right things and this whole incident spun my game around. One could say he took his extra stokes anyway and the incident took over his mind for the rest of the round. Always a possible side affect of bending the rules or being made to feel like you bent the rules.

turn it over

Winterer's picture
Winterer
Offline
Joined: Mar 20 2009
Posts:
golf

Golf is the only sport where a player calls a penalty on him/herself. Implicit in the game is the players' ability to referee their own games. When you are out playing by yourself, and you miss an easy ten-foot putt, do you count the putt as going in? Probably you don't. If you make the call that your lie is unplayable, that is good enough for me.

On a side note, is the road OB at Blue?

Prudential Missoula, Buy, Sell, Rent...What do YOU need?

Winterer's picture
Winterer
Offline
Joined: Mar 20 2009
Posts:
Verticality came into play in

Verticality came into play in Billings a couple times because of the deep caverns in the cliff faces. Both times I slid into holes (the short, steep downhill four or five, and the straight up the hill, ten on the other course) the only place I could throw from was from on top of the rock. Both times resulted in better lies for me, but both times the other players agreed that was my correct lie. If I could have thrown from within the crevice, I think I would have had to throw from there, and not moved up on top of the rock. Are you saying I might have had the choice of going up or staying put, if my lie had been playable?

Prudential Missoula, Buy, Sell, Rent...What do YOU need?