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brianb's picture
brianb
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clarification

So I've been thinking about how to clarify this situation so that there isn't confusion at that spot next year and this is what I came up with...

Did your disc pass beyond the tree? Go to A below
Did your disc not pass the tree? Go to B below

A) Your disc went beyond the tree. If it passed on the left side (fairway side), it is OK - no penalty, play on. If it passed on the right side, you missed the mando and MUST play from the drop zone with a 1 stroke penalty.

B) Your disc was short of the tree. If it came to rest on the left side (fairway side) of the OB line as indicated by the string, OK - no penalty, play on. If it came to rest on the right side of the OB string, your OB and must play either from your last lie or from where it crossed the OB line with a 1 stroke penalty.

An important thing to remember in this situation is that a disc cannot be OB until it comes to rest and therefore the mando penalty is what should be enforced if the disc passes on the wrong side of the mando.

Usually I would avoid having a mando in a confusing situation like this, but the mando does serve an important safety purpose of keeping people from playing in front of the tee of hole 5. Simply stringing OB at a 90 degree angle from the fairway would not prohibit anyone from going to the right of the tree and playing in front of the tee as a mando would.

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shags17
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Yes, but it was stated that

Yes, but it was stated that the OB line ended before the mando, and that D crossed OB before he missed the mando. All I'm saying is that if the OB line had extended past the mando and his disc had landed out, wouldn't he take his lie where he crossed out instead of the drop zone? Seems how it would be to me as you just stated that the first violation takes precedence. Either way, since the line didn't extend past the mando, D played it right, throwing from the drop zone.

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bobd
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disagree

shags17 wrote:
All I'm saying is that if the OB line had extended past the mando and his disc had landed out, wouldn't he take his lie where he crossed out instead of the drop zone? Seems how it would be to me as you just stated that the first violation takes precedence. Either way, since the line didn't extend past the mando, D played it right, throwing from the drop zone.

what??? How is OB the first violation..? This first penalty was the mando, since that doesn't have to come to rest, theoretically - violated in the air, so OB doesn't come into play (even if OB ends before tree or after) until it comes to rest. D should have played from the mando drop zone, IMO. Anyone else on this same page with me? Or am I reading something wrong?

just to be sure, this is how I remember that hole's layout as far as mando/ob goes...

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shags17's picture
shags17
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No...

IF the OB line, and only IF, it had extended past the mando, and your disc landed out of bounds past the mando, you would take the lie where it went out. This is because when establishing a lie when you go OB, you take it from the place last inbounds, which we all know. Knowing that, even if the mando was crossed(on the wrong side) and OB extended past it, you would NOT take your lie at the drop but instead where it went out because you did not cross back inbounds.

Edit: And I believe that D played it right in the actual case of the tourney, because he played from the drop zone.

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Christian
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No.

No. No matter where you went out of bounds, and no matter whether the OB line had extended past the mando and your disc stayed OB, if the disc was still moving when it crossed the mando on the wrong side, that is all that matters, and you go to the drop zone for a missed mando. The OB rule never comes into play if you pass the mando on the wrong side, because as soon as the disc passes the wrong side of the mando, your shot is over and it doesn't matter what happens afterwards.

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shags17
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Stupid rules

This is why I think a lot of people think our set of rules provided by the PDGA suck. I had to take a look at the book, and reading over both the mando rule and ob rule it does not state in either what would happen if the two ever came into the same throw/flight of disc. I'm just confused because being out of bounds before you cross a mando seems like the first violation once the disc comes to rest out of bounds because your disc went out before crossing the wrong side?

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Winterer
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reply

So Christian's point is that mando takes priority over OB. (Is that because mando has priority, or is it because the disc missed the mando BEFORE it came to rest OB) (I know that is not the specific example of what happened, just asking hypotheticals). Billy's point is he can't find anywhere where that rule is stated clearly. OK, classic PDGA rules discussion. Basically the PDGA ruling is it comes down to what the TD says before the round(or, Christian is right and Mando always takes priority. Or, player gets to choose which penalty to accept and then throw from lie accordingly).

My point, after reading the above, is that whenever there is a mando there has to be a drop zone right near it. Right? If there is not one, can a player create one next to the mando, take the stroke and play on? Or, if the TD says nothing specific about a drop zone, does a person have to unwind their mando shot?

And one more OB question. When a disc is OB, can a person throw his or her next shot from the point it went OB, retee, or from anywhere along the flight path of the throw? That is an old reading of the OB rule that I don't know is an accurate reading. Any help?

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Christian
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A's to Q's

1. (Is that because mando has priority, or is it because the disc missed the mando BEFORE it came to rest OB)

Because the disc missed the mando BEFORE it came to rest OB. Once the disc misses the mando, your shot just ended. OB doesn't ever come into play, because it can only come into play once the disc is at rest. Even if it was very obviously going to stay OB. Mando always takes priority, because again, the disc *is not* OB. Crossing over OB mid-flight never triggers the OB penalty; only a disc at rest OB does. No player's choice on which penalty to accept...you never got an OB penalty, because your shot ended once you passed the mando while still moving.

2. "My point, after reading the above, is that whenever there is a mando there has to be a drop zone right near it. Right? If there is not one, can a player create one next to the mando, take the stroke and play on? Or, if the TD says nothing specific about a drop zone, does a person have to unwind their mando shot?"

If a TD says nothing about a drop zone, it's the default one next to the mando, one meter back and five meters wide. And as far as I can tell, there IS no unwinding of mandos. Can't do it. Even if you're six inches past the mando on the wrong side, and could easily reach back across to the other side and throw your next on the correct side of the mando...can't do it. You missed the mando once your disc crossed the imaginary line perpendicular to the line between the tee and the mando object, and again, as soon as that happens, your shot is over and whatever happens next doesn't matter.

3. "And one more OB question. When a disc is OB, can a person throw his or her next shot from the point it went OB, retee, or from anywhere along the flight path of the throw? That is an old reading of the OB rule that I don't know is an accurate reading. Any help?"

You can throw your next shot from 1) the point it went OB, 2) retee, or reshoot from your previous lie if it wasn't your tee shot that went OB. No "from anywhere along the flight path." #2 is interesting: Say that we were playing blue hole #7, and anywhere short of the road was marked OB. You drive mid-way up the hill, approach, and you're putting for your three, and the disc hits the cage and rolls all the way down the hill, across the road, and by the teebox. It's out of bounds, but you DON'T have to take it at the bottom of the hill on the correct side of the road where it was last in bounds--you are allowed to take the stroke and re-putt from your previous lie. Which you sure should!

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brianb
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Billy, agreed!! The rules as

Billy, agreed!! The rules as written are somewhat confusing and have several vague inferences, implications, and wordings, not to mention all the different sources to find the rules in; such as the Rule Book, Competition Manual, and the Rules Q and A (or Rules faq) which sometimes trumps anything written in the CM or RB). The PDGA is re-writing the Rule Book this winter to combine the RB and CM and to hopefully clear up other vague rules.

I've heard rumors about "fixing" the DROT rule - either by outlawing a wedgie and all other "supported by the cage" rulings to only include something that is actually inside the circumference of the cage or by legalizing DROT. That was just a rumor, but we'll see...

Here are the places I researched for the mando ruling:

PDGA rules School - http://www.pdga.com/mandatories Scroll down to "E"

PDGA discussion board - http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=34677

Example provided by Chuck Kennedy - http://www.pdga.com/faq/rules-questions-answers/missed-the-mandatory-wen...

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doublecyc
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Da hole of doom

I was going to propose another possible way to simplify the play on the hole in question but after a discussion with BB at the tourney, and he patiently listened to my concern, i have seen the light of the reasoning behind this layout. The mando is there to penalize shots like D's on the 1st round and possibly the 2nd. I was present the 1st round and didn't fully understand what the intention of the Mando tree was with the OB line running right up to it. I was just barely short of the mando but OB, D crossed the OB but landed way past the mando. He played from the drop zone and i played from where i went OB. So the deal seems to be this... since there is no OB past the mando, better be sure that your disc goes past the mando when driving or approaching otherwise you will play back up the fairway where it went out rather than the drop zone which would be closer. That in itself plays into course knowledge and rules of this particular hole. It is an advantage to play past the mando regardless of a quality shot or not.
Crazy as it is, that hole ate my lunch both rounds. The OB is real tight on the right (left side until the top of the hill). I had a 400' shot off the tee on the 2nd round only to be OB by less than a foot Sad Cool hole.
Bottom line: be left and make sure whichever shot, tee or approach, that it has enough to go past the mando.
Shouldn't be giving up my revalations Oups