GCF

Good review Christian. I'm in the market for a new extreme headwind disc and will give the PD2 a shot. I have some really old Champion max weight firebirds that I've used in such situations, but my hand is now used to the fatter rim and I throw them rarely. I picked up a champion Ape and threw it only a few times and figured it would be good try in the high wind. Have you tried an Ape and hows it compare to the PD2?

Yeah...the Archon has found a spot in my bag next to my Vulcan....lol...I carry 4 Vulcans and 3 Archons...I've whittled my bag down to a few drivers but carry in quantity.

Great review! Innova's new plastic this year has been pretty impressive. The Vulcan is a great addition for some of the weaker arms out there like myself. A little rit dye, contact paper and a stencil of spock's ear and whammo! - A new favorite driver!

It's good to see you're allowed to put non-innova plastic into play. I always thought that once someone gets sponsored they weren't allowed to play anything but their products. (Or is discmania an innova-owned company, maybe?)

Have you tried out the Wedge yet? I'm sure you probably don't have much need for an understable putter but I've been using it for putts over 30 feet with ALOT of success. It's great to be able to putt from those distances on such a straight line to the basket, instead of having to adjust for so much hyzer at the end of the putt.

Discmania is separately owned, but Innova manufacturers Discmania's discs for them, so all Innova-sponsored players are allowed to throw Discmania. Millenium is the same thing (Innova makes their discs under contract). Discmania has come out with several discs recently that are widely respected at the top levels (like the PD, Freak, and PD2). Some of these use Innova molds for the top, bottom, or both. (Much like different Innova discs may share a top or bottom in common).

I did get a few Apes to try out, and I didn't find them to be as predictable as my Xcalibers and about the same stability, so not worth the slight increase in speed for the loss in control. The PD2 seems to be substantially more overstable, and at least as fast as an Ape, so it DOES fill a different, and much-needed, niche in the bag. While there will never be another firebird as far as a headwind driver, often it is worth it to give up a little control for extra distance...I was finding at Swards and CC that my firebirds were working like I expected, but just WEREN'T getting far enough up the fairway because they're not quite fast enough when you're trying to throw as far as possible.

I generally prefer a rim width about where the Destroyers/XCals got to; the PD2 will be the first rim wider than those that'll make it into my bag. Bosses are great, but I just love destroyers (best max distance driver out there, hands down, in my opinion) and they're pretty darn similar, so I've never carried one. And I never really liked Katanas or other recent superfast additions to the line.

Double D, glad to hear you're liking the Archon! I think this disc may be really well-suited for players of varying arm strength. For players that don't throw 400', it is a big distance driver that will give you a full flight while maintaining control. For those with a little more pop it will be an excellent option for an understable driver. I'm excited to check it out as a roller as well--haven't heard anything yet about if it is well-suited.

I've tried out the wedge a little bit, but there just isn't a spot in my bag for one, so I haven't really gotten to know it too well. I always try and use as few molds as possible, and find that aviars of varying plastics and wear do the trick. Although, as I am trying to get better at the spin putt, I can definitely see the possibility for a disc like the wedge! I've been trying to get used to the Dart for that reason, but after being excited about it initially, I am finding that they may not fit my hand very well (too domey). The bottom line may be that the wedge is a great control putt/upshot disc right out of the box for our elevation, whereas a new aviar will be too stable until it wears in to fill that role.

Thanks for the info Christian. I play so rarely (about to change now that ktown has a course) I always feel about 2 years behind the technology. I picked up a PD2 C-Line and a champion archon and star archon as well. I haven't thrown the archon but love the Wraith so I figured I'd give it a try.

I've picked up few Katanas and like a lot of discs I am amazed how different it flies at dif weights and plastics. If I could learn to just throw at 85% I'd get the most out of this disc and a vulcan (153) I picked up as well. My champion 174 Katana is the most stable of the group, and my 163 pro Katana will flip and roll with a minor headwind. It's like 2/3 throws with the Katana go where I want and further than my other discs, but that 1/3 is always a mystery. I find it too unpredictable at times to trust in a tournament. For my aging arm if I have an uphill shot and a fat fairway I'll throw the light Katana, otherwise I'll gladly sacrifice D for control. The Vulcan goes even further for me but I find it even more unpredictable.

I occasionally go to the fields and huck my box of discs and have never felt there is that much difference between a Wraith and Destroyer. I guess with the different plastics and weights I really have a hard time distinguishing between my Wraiths and Destroyers, and I find distance wise they end up about the same. I have one Wraith Carter Allen sent me that is a disc I never want to lose, very stable, very slow to come out of a slight turnover, I trust it so much with a medium headwind. My other Wraiths turnover a lot more than this one. What is the official difference between the Wraith and Destroyer? Is it the destroyer is slightly more stable at high speeds? Honestly if I was blind folded and through them it'd be hard to tell the difference for me.

I throw mostly sidearm drives, and the wraith and destroyer are somewhat similiar with the Sidearm throw. The destroyer comes out of the hand a little faster and because of that it sets up a little more consistantly for me. I have thrown both but now just have the destroyer in the bag because the wraith is too inconsistant for me. Sometimes it breaks back, sometimes it just turns into the hill, sometimes it goes nose-up and stalls. While this is true for my destroyer drives also, the wraiths do it more.

I've seen many sidearm throwers throw a wraith instead of a destroyer and throw them well. Ron P. from Bozeman throws a wicked controlled FH drive with a champ wraith that he could drop inbounds with awesome consistancy.

Picked up some new discs and took them out with a t-storm rolling through the other day. I tried out a 174 Champion Vulcan, 171 Champion Archon, 171 Star Archon, and a 173 C-Line PD2.

The Vulcan surprised me. I have a 157 and have thrown my friends pro 172s. I have to say at the longest Lubrect hole it was cool as hell watching Mark Johnson hit his head on the basket for a birdy after crushing a vulcan out of the t-box. But I've seen that Vulcan turn over, and turn over, and not come back.

So testing the new Vulcan I figured at max weight it'd be more stable. It really flew a lot like my 157, it was almost as flippy. Even with mild tail winds this thing should be a -4 out of the hand from flip up. Almost every toss turned into a roller. I think this disc, with it's sharp edge, understability at high speed, and being max weight could be an epic roller disc. A disc with more weight in the rim will keep more momentum as a roller than one with more weight in the middle. If thrown right it went super far, but guessing how much flip was going to happen in any kind of wind made it very high risk tournament disc imo. I think for people learning that haven't come close to their full power potential, this disc is good. It is flippy and goes far. When a disc flips and you don't want it too, and it goes farther than anything else, it can really get you deep in the rough and looking at a double bogey on a bad shot. Really far equals really far off the path on a bad shot.

With the Archons I have to say their rating of "-2" on release is bs. I love the wraith myself, and have a couple max weight ones that to me are pretty identical in flight to my destroyers. So I thought this disc would be for me since Innova compares it to a Wraith. No. I also carried out to the fields a 174 Champion Katana and a 167 Pro Katana. I like my 167 Pro Katana, and have found a place for it. The Archon to me is WAY FLIPPIER than the 167 Pro Katana that is beaten up. I really didn't expect the Archon to flip out so much. My Wraiths kind of hold the angle of release I put on them. The Archon to me is a "-3" on release, maybe even more. Not as flippy as the Vulcan, but damn close, I could barely tell the difference. I found the big rim of the Archon with flat top a bit uncomfortable in my hand as well. I through the first shot with the Champion Archon into a 10 to 20 mph wind. I threw with a degree or two of hyzer and ended up with an epic roller than hit some tennis courts like 500+ away. It flipped to full roll from mild hyzer on the very first throw as a brand new Champion 171 disc. Just to verify I threw my Wraiths next. They were the shots I want, flipped just a hair and slowly faded out, and landed almost exactly where I hoped they'd land. Throwing my Archon just as I throw my Wraith resulted in a totally different flight path, just way way more turnover with the Archon.

I'm not sure if my Archon's are the norm. Both are pretty flat topped, like the Vulcans. The Champion Archon is a Am Worlds Model, and little domier than most I've seen. Either way, for the first 40% of the flight I felt like I was throwing a Vulcan. After that, once they slow down, they flew pretty straight and had a nice fade out. They carried well once level, and came out a little faster late in fight than the Vulcan. But even tossing with side winds and mild tail wind I once again felt this disc is way to flippy to be trusted as anything but a roller. You'd have to get to know this one quite well to use it regularly, to have that understanding of much flip up to expect. I really hoped for more from the Archon, and think it is wrong of Innova to say it is like a Wraith. I felt lied to on this statement. It's like a Vulcan or extra light 150 something beaten up Katana. Make no mistake, the Archon is more understable than a Katana, especially on that first 100 to 200 feet of flight, it really wants to stand up and flip over. Both mine flew this way, I'd give it a -3.5 to -4 for high speed initial flip. For some of you with serious crushing power you'd flip this thing upside down on a power throw.

The PD2 was my favorite of the group. Christian wrote a bit about it above. I had some gusts to probably 25 MPH, maybe more, and I loved it. I wish I brought my other head wind discs I trust (excalibers and firebirds). But this disc was fast, felt good in my hand, and didn't do anything coming out of my release besides fly like I released it. There wasn't any flip to it, it is built for speed and power and headwinds. I gained trust in it right away, winds that turned my other hyzer throws into rollers did nothing to this disc, it cut them like butter. It is overstable, it fades out, but really nicely. And although if thrown flat it goes right to hyzer, it goes so damn fast that even without flat flight you end up getting some good D. I look forward to trying it more in the heavier winds, but all and all this is a great disc and to me seemed a bit more stable than an excaliber. But I need to do a side by side test still. I look forward to trying it out for some thumbers and overhads as well. Compared to other discs as well with massive rims and sharp corners from the the rim to the top, the PD2 feels a hell of a lot better in a throwers hand imo.

All and all of this review I give the PD2 the thumbs up, the Vulcan a possible rollers thrumbs up, and Archons are for sale. I think for younger and new players both the Vulcan and Archon are good choices, but if you can throw over 350 you'll probably overpower both these discs even at max weight. If you spent a lot of time with an Archon and got to know it well, it could be good weapon. It is fast and goes far, I just question the control factors in terms of being able to consitently keep it on target. It's one of those discs that 2 or 3 out of 4 shots would be among your longest and you'd be stoked. 1 to 2 out of 4 shots are landing way off target, and they'll be long, which can be disasterous. Learning to use them in the right tailwind conditions might be best, but even in my short experiment I couldn't believe they were standing up with tail wind throws. They do go far, I'll give them that, and maybe for huge turnover shots have a value, but once again a thin line of being in control and being way down the fairway and 200 feet off target. To me that guessing of how much will the Archon flip up when I throw it makes it a sketchy disc to be used by pros. Extra distance at a high cost of losing control isn't winning disc golf.

great reviews, all. Just to confirm on the Vulcan...I am not a power thrower and thought the vulcan would help add mucho distance to my tosses. It does, but rarely in the right direction. I had it in the bag for a month, threw two or three of my best (longest with some control) drives ever. I also spent a lot of time looking for the disc in the deep rough. Finally it came out of the bag, just too crazy inconsistant.

Me and my limp-noodle arm still like the XS. Funny how many new drivers I've tried since I first discovered this discraft workhourse, and I keep going back.